I think we can all agree on the way music is constructed and the way tempo can be expressed.
The dance teacher societies and hence dance teachers and their pulis hav traditionally expressed tempo in terms of bars/measures per minute.
Musicians setting a metronome or rhythm backing box need a finer resolution so they use beats per minute, as do club DJs wanting to mix between tracks.

The problem only arises because beats per minute and bars per minute have the same abbreviation. This may not be a problem where musicians refer to measures such as in the USA, but here in the UK I believe most musicians refer to bars of music. I have used the abbreviation MPM but it is not widely recognised here.

Abbreviations are only useful where everyone has the same interpretation, otherwise they can cause confusion. For examples, IT means Information Technology to me, but Intermediate Treatment to my wife. Similarly, ATC is Air Traffic Control to me and Adult Traing Centre to my wife. We just need to agree to disagree whilst ensuring that we are aware of possible confusion.

That's not the only problem. In fact, that's not even the biggest problem with bars per minute.

The real problem with bars/measures per minute, as I mentioned before, is its tendency to mislead. Far more important to musicians than being more accurate, beats per minute is more truthful.

I already used the Waltz/Foxtrot example, so here's another one: Tango, Samba and Paso Doble can be written in 2/4 or 4/4. Let's say a Samba has a tempo of 100 beats per minute. If it's written in 2/4, its tempo in measures per minute is 50, but if it's written in 4/4, its tempo in MPM is 25. Most dancers would be fooled into thinking that a Samba in 2/4 played at 50 MPM is twice as fast as a Samba in 4/4 played at 25 MPM. Because of their lack of understanding of time signatures, they don't realize the two songs are exactly the same speed.

Tempo measured in beats is always the same, no matter what the time signature. 2/4, 4/4, 6/8... It doesn't matter. 100 bpm is always 100 bpm, period. On the other hand, tempo measured in bars per minute changes depending on the time signature. One music label lists their Viennese Waltzes as 60 mpm, while another lists theirs as 30. Add to that the fact that most dancers have no concept of time signature, and it's a recipe for confusion.

If you disagree, try this fun little exercise: Ask 10 dancer friends to answer the following questions, and see how many of them answer correctly.

(1) Which is faster, a Foxtrot played at 30 bars/minute, or a Waltz played at 40 bars/minute?

(2) Tango "A" is written in 2/4 at 60 bars/minute. Tango "B" is written in 4/4 at 30 bars/minute. Tango "C" (A Vals-Tango) is written in 3/4 at 40 bars/minute. Which Tango is the fastest? Which is the slowest?

(3) A Slow Waltz and a Viennese Waltz both have a tempo of 30 bars/minute. Is the Viennese Waltz the same speed, twice as fast, or half as fast as the Slow Waltz? (*Bonus question: Why?)

My guess is that 9 out of 10 dancers would flunk this quiz. On the other hand, if you were to present the same exact questions using beats per minute instead, 10 out of 10 would answer correctly. What does this tell you about the problems inherent in using bars as a measuring tool for tempo?

Regards,
Jonathan

I forgot to provide answers to the quiz questions!

The answer to #1 and 2 is "none of the above". The Foxtrot, the Waltz, and all 3 Tangos are exactly the same speed: 120 beats per minute.

Since the time signature wasn't specified in question #3, the answer should be "unknown". However, if you assume the Viennese to be written in its "default" 6/8 time signature, then it would be 180 beats/minute, or twice as fast as the Slow Waltz at 90.

Regards,
Jonathan

I may be old fashioned. I believe something that has been with us since those very earliest days. BMP has always been Bars per Minute and not Beats per Minute. You might as well change a Lock in a Quickstep, which has been a Lock since before World War 1 and call it a Draw Up.I would find it very difficult if I wanted to dance Bar one and bar three with with more intensity than bar two and four. Counting the four bar intro surely there is nobody that would not count 123 223 323 423. I for one would find it a waste of time counting 123456789101112. As most of you are probably aware Modern and Latin is being choreographed in eight bar phrasing.Counting beats would be for me not the way to go.An interesting little bit of information. An International competitor friend of mine, said how on a crowded floor in the early rounds he often starts to dance in the four bar intro. The reason being that the other competitors will dance all over you if you don't pick your spot early.This also means the choreography will need to be altered to suit the extra bars, most likely two.

Again, Luv, no one actually counts all the beats per minute from 1 to whatever. Beats per minute has ONE purpose--to indicate the overall speed of the music. In cmpetitions, there is a standard beat-per-minute range for each dance. That way, you know if you practice to music having the same beats per minute, you'll be practicing at the same speed you'll be dancing in the competition. That kind of thing is what beats-per-minute is for.

For choreography, and for interpreting the music when dancing without choreography, of course you pay attention to the bars and phrases. Nobody counts total beats when they choreograph.

Really, we're in agreement. It's just that beats-per-minute and counting by bars have totally different purposes.

One thing you're not thinking about (maybe you are and I just don't realize it) is that musicians and dancers will look at and hear music differently. Musician's are looking at the music as a whole, from one phrase to the next, from opening to the bridge, from chorus to chorus, whatever. Dancers are looking at (hearing) music and applying step patterns to smaller segments of the music. A simplified example would be that a Foxtrot basic takes 1.5 measures to complete (usual SSQQ Foxtrot) and it takes three full measures to complete two basics. If you are doing some choreography, you know that you will have approximately 30 measures per minute to do with whatever you will. You can then map out or diagram your routine and be able to figure out what you need to fill in one minute, one and half minutes or two minutes worth of music.

Yes, as a musician it took a few times to figure out what I was really reading when looking at "bpm" and thinking that those waltzes and foxtrots were awfully slow. Yes, for me it would have been much easier to see 90 bpm and think "90 beats per minute," but as a dancer, thinking in terms of figures and variations, the "bars per minutes" makes sense in my routines.

Dgcasey. Bars per minute makes sense in my routines. Of course it does.And to continue. What right has anybody got to start calling bars of music as measures. I have never struck that name untill I started reading these posts.
I've been dancing a long long time. As Jonathan has wrote how confusing it can be. So how simpler can it be than to have bars of music. And bars of music per minute. In eight bar phrasing. There will be 64 Bars of music with a four bar intoduction making 68 bars of music all told. All we need now is the speed the music is going to be played at, which could be 28 bars per minute.
Some labels on the cover somewhere will be 28 BPM. 64 Bars.
Just for the record. If you count you will find that there is a marked difference on bar seven and eight which signals that bar one is coming up.
Some studios here who have former international dancers teaching will teach all of the above in their medal classes. I believe it should be part of the medal as a written test. But then who am I to say such a sacrilegious thing. But who could say that it wouldn't help in an understanding of what we are trying to dance to.